[TJKitsune]

The whole discussion about violence in video games has gone on for years, ever since Mortal Kombat came out on the Sega Genesis and Super Nintendo... Atternies, legislators, people on the Supreme Court have all debated and put claims against games that depict and put people in situations that invovle killing innocent people, cops, hookers, and the like. Sure, the games of old that started these lawsuits (Night Trap - Sega CD) are now considered cheesy and no where near as gorey as the Next Gen Games these days. 25 to Life is a new game that is coming out on the XBox and PS2. People are already requesting that the game be banned from stores as Grand Theft Auto was when it was originally released. People have debated that the reason for all these killings and such is really the parent's fault for not bothering to know what their children are getting into and neglecting them. I for one do blame parents. They're too busy these days with multiple jobs, both parents are gone during the day and late evenings. The kids are left to defend for themselves. And with all this media on the games, all it does is get them on the top 10 list of best games. They also ignore other games, such as Dead Revolver..which you are a cop and use people as human shields. Supposedly this is okay, but when you reverse the roles, it's not... Cops = good, therefore anything that says otherwise gets criticised... Below is the script on a CNN coverage on 25 to Life. It's short and very strange to read, but, just goes to show that these kinda debates will never end..


GRACE: Thank you.

Everybody, we are shifting gears. Don`t worry. We`ll take you back to Aruba tomorrow night.

You remember that video game called Grand Theft Auto? Some stores actually refused to carry it because it was so violent? Well, hold on to your hats. Now there`s 25 to Life, and the object is to kill cops. That`s right. You get rewarded on this video game if you kill cops. We called the company who`s putting this thing out. It`s called Idos (ph). We called Idos headquarters in California. They did not return our calls. We tried to call them in Great Britain. No response. In earlier reports, when they were asked to comment on this video game, they always say no comment.

Tonight, in Asheville, North Carolina, trial attorney Jack Thompson. We`re bringing in the rest of our panel tonight. Jack, bring me up to date. What is 25 to Life? Hey, Elizabeth, can you show me 25 to Life while Jack is talking?

And I also want to show everybody one after the next, after the next police officers that lost their life in the line of duty! Now, this is a video game, and you`re seeing at the bottom of this screen, real-life cops that lost their lives trying to protect you and me.

Jack, hit it.

JACK THOMPSON, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Nancy, there are three cops that are dead in Alabama because of Grand Theft Auto by City, two cops and a dispatcher. So we know that these cop-killing games are leading to these killings because that`s what they are, they`re murder simulators. Xbox, of course, which this game will be available on, along with Sony`s Playstation 2 -- you have to ask Bill Gates, What are you thinking? Here`s a philanthropist and a powerful man, the richest man in the world, and yet he`s making available to children around the world on Xbox a cop-killing game.

The military, Nancy, uses these murder simulators, killing simulators...

GRACE: Oh!

THOMPSON: ... to break down the inhibition of new recruits to kill. And therefore, of course it`ll have that same effect on teenage civilians. So the reality is that these games are leading to deaths, and in fact, there`s a University of Indiana study that came out three days ago that showed that kids process these games in the part of the brain that leads to copycatting.

GRACE: Incredible! Incredible! I can hardly even focus on what you`re saying, Jack. Elizabeth, please continue showing it because what I`m looking at is the picture of one cop after the next, Dino Lombardi, that we are showing gunned down in the line of duty, Dino!

DINO LOMBARDI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, people kill cops. Video games don`t kill cops.

GRACE: OK. You know what? I knew you`d say that. Debra Opri?

DEBRA OPRI, ATTORNEY FOR JACKSON`S PARENTS: You know, you are really upsetting me, Nancy, because you used the 1st Amendment to destroy Michael Jackson, and you won`t use the 1st Amendment to protect an entertainment company. Does anybody remember Charlie Chaplin in the early days of movies, silent movies? He picked on cops. He attacked cops. He was such a problem to Herbert Hoover and the FBI...

GRACE: OK, you know what?

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Thank you for bringing up Herbert Hoover and Charlie Chaplin.

OPRI: Can I tell you something?

GRACE: When we come back, we`ll be talking about 25 to Life. You`re seeing a line-up of one cop after the next killed in the line of duty. And this video machine is being marketed and sold. It comes out in August on the shelves of stores in your neighborhood. Look at this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Well, Senator Chuck Schumer is asking the video game 25 to Life be boycotted. It depicts street gang violence, killing cops. This is what your kids will be digesting if you buy this for $49.95. You`re seeing at the bottom of the screen one law officer after the next gunned down in the line of duty.

To Bethany Marshall. You know, the U.S. Supreme Court just ruled in 2003 -- I`ve got it right in front of me -- that video games have nothing to do with violence. Thoughts?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I`ll tell you what does have do with violence, strong emotional experiences. And when those kids are gaming and they press the button or the mouse and they actually kill somebody and there`s an emotional charge that does rewire the brain. And another thing that affects violence is lack of parental rules. So a question I have with these games are, Where are the parents.

GRACE: You know, Dino Lombardi, I`ve only got one minute left. But in the last Tennessee shooting, where a kid shot two cops and a third person, they had been watching this Grand Theft Auto for days on end. It said life is like a video game. And you`re still telling me this is OK?

LOMBARDI: Well, I`m not saying it`s OK, but I don`t support censoring it.

GRACE: Yes, you are!

LOMBARDI: I`m not saying it`s OK, Nancy.

GRACE: We censor porn...

LOMBARDI: ... and you know I`m not saying it`s OK.

GRACE: ... don`t we? We censor porn. Why would we let there be cop- shooting videos?

LOMBARDI: We have movies where cops are killed, and we have many instances of people who have killed...

GRACE: But kids can get this!

LOMBARDI: ... who we can show they can have watched such movies.

GRACE: Jack...

LOMBARDI: It`s not...

GRACE: ... children can get this, Jack Thompson!

LOMBARDI: Yes. The 1st Amendment, people who understand the 1st Amendment know does not protect the right of a company to sell an M-rated game to a child.

GRACE: Jack, Jack, I`ve...

THOMPSON: Children don`t have a 1st Amendment...

GRACE: ... only got 20 seconds. Jack...

THOMPSON: Yes?

GRACE: ... we logged on to buy Grand Theft Auto. We didn`t buy it, but it says, If you`re under 17, click here. That`s all it takes, Jack. Anybody can get this.

THOMPSON: Exactly. And there`s no penalty, except in Illinois...

GRACE: Boy!

THOMPSON: ... if you sell...

GRACE: OK.

THOMPSON: ... a game like this to a child.

GRACE: Guys, we`ve run out of time. I want to thank all of my guests tonight, but my biggest thank you, as always, to you for being with us, inviting all of us into your home.

Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off again for tonight. I hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

[Sway]

Arrgh, it's the same shit over and over again. I cannot stand 24-hour news stations. This is my argument. Always will be. Kids do imitate what they see. I pretended to be a Ninja Turtle, Power Ranger, and all sorts of other shit when I was a kid. I also seem to remember a game called Cops and Robbers, where believe it or not, PRETEND CRIMINALS WERE PRETENDING TO KILL PRETEND COPS WITH PRETEND GUNS AND PRETEND VICE VERSA!!!! The horror!!! So yes, kids imitate and simulate things. That has nothing to do with going through with the real act. That's just ridiculous. Parents don't even have to instill that great of sense of right and wrong to get their children to not shoot people. My parents never had to sit me down tell me it wasn't okay to kill someone in cold blood, I figured it out somehow. Hell, they never had to discuss a violent film with me afterward or any of that other hippie crap. I, as a young child, could figure out the golden rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Don't fucking kill people, I got it.

The kids who do these things are fucking sick in the head to begin with. These games aren't corrupting them, they naturally gravitate toward them. They seek the violent games out. They watch slasher flicks rooting for the villain. Their notebooks are filled with poorly-drawn depictions of bloody executions. They listen to shitty heavy metal. Video games, movies, society, etc. did not make them this way; there was a problem to begin with, and the parents couldn't see it. It's not their fault, either; people don't always open up, and people can't always see these things coming, no matter how close they are to someone. Sure, parents should watch their kids and make sure they are loved, but they can't magically change the way their kids act. Kids rebel. You know who's fault it is? The kids' own damn fault. No sane person blamed society for Jack the Ripper or Charles Manson. They were fucked up. These things are always going to happen and always will. Rapists don't need rape sims to violate a woman. Inside traders don't need a corrupt stock market sim to commit their white collar crimes. Al Queda sure as hell didn't need a plane crashing sim to take down the twin towers. People get fucked up on their own, and that is irrefutable fact. No one will ever convince me otherwise.

The truth of the matter is school violence is way, way down from the early nineties. I think it's something like you're over twice as likely to be struck by lightning than you are likely to witness firsthand a school shooting. You're safer in school than you are at the supermarket. All these politicians and political analysts and talking heads and whatever are all preying on your fears for their own gain, and that is what offends me, not some pixelated blood splattering on a screen. We as people need to stop blaming outside forces for what kids are doing. They're old enough and smart enough to know better. There's something inside them that has caused this.

Now onto this stupid fucking show. This was five minutes of worthless tripe they used to fill time, it seems. Nothing really even makes sense. And they brought in the weakest counter-arguers I've seen in a long while and gave them four seconds of airtime between them. Absolutely pathetic. And this is supposed to be a credible news organization. I'm going to insert my comments as if I was yelling at my TV while watching this:



GRACE: Thank you.

Everybody, we are shifting gears. Don`t worry. We`ll take you back to Aruba tomorrow night.

Oh, thank god we're going back to Aruba! I care so much about a dumb whore of a teen who got drunk around strange foreigners and allowed them to take advantage of her! Please keep going on for days and days and days about this stupid girl and her stupid story! IT MATTERS SO MUCH TO EVERYONE, JUST LIKE LACI PETERSON AND TERRI SCHIAVO DID!!! P.S. I loathe 24-hour news networks.

You remember that video game called Grand Theft Auto? Some stores actually refused to carry it because it was so violent? Well, hold on to your hats. Now there`s 25 to Life, and the object is to kill cops. That`s right. You get rewarded on this video game if you kill cops. We called the company who`s putting this thing out. It`s called Idos (ph). We called Idos headquarters in California. They did not return our calls. We tried to call them in Great Britain. No response. In earlier reports, when they were asked to comment on this video game, they always say no comment.

That must mean they're wrong and you're right, thanks for protecting me CNN!

Tonight, in Asheville, North Carolina, trial attorney Jack Thompson. We`re bringing in the rest of our panel tonight. Jack, bring me up to date. What is 25 to Life? Hey, Elizabeth, can you show me 25 to Life while Jack is talking?

And I also want to show everybody one after the next, after the next police officers that lost their life in the line of duty! Now, this is a video game, and you`re seeing at the bottom of this screen, real-life cops that lost their lives trying to protect you and me.

Jack, hit it.

JACK THOMPSON, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Nancy, there are three cops that are dead in Alabama because of Grand Theft Auto by City, two cops and a dispatcher. So we know that these cop-killing games are leading to these killings because that`s what they are, they`re murder simulators.

Oh, you know this? How? Just because it depicts cops being killed? I would really love to see the direct evidence that the playing of this game caused three officers of the law to be murdered, instead of, you know, wild baseless claims with nothing to back it up. But that works too, I guess.

Xbox, of course, which this game will be available on, along with Sony`s Playstation 2 -- you have to ask Bill Gates, What are you thinking? Here`s a philanthropist and a powerful man, the richest man in the world, and yet he`s making available to children around the world on Xbox a cop-killing game.

BILL GATES YOU ARE DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR AND IN CHARGE OF EVERYTHING THIRD PARTY PUBLISHERS MAKE, EVEN FOR OTHER SYSTEMS! YOU HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO, MICROSOFT RUNS ITSELF!!! PLEASE FIX THIS INJUSTICE AND SAVE AMERICA! ALSO I'M ASSUMING YOU AGREE WITH ME COMPLETELY ALREADY EVEN THOUGH I HAVE NO FUCKING CLUE!

The military, Nancy, uses these murder simulators, killing simulators...

GRACE: Oh!

THOMPSON: ... to break down the inhibition of new recruits to kill.

Ahahahahahahaha! This is just straight-up complete and utter bullshit. It's a total lie. The military does not use "murder simulators" to desensitize troops. Especially not GTA or that shit. They use accurate military sims to help hone the skills of their recruits with a low-cost, no-risk method. Even if you do want to believe that these are used to desensitize the recruits to violence, the fact of the matter is that these sure weren't needed in any of our previous wars, so fuck you Thompson.

And therefore, of course it`ll have that same effect on teenage civilians. So the reality is that these games are leading to deaths,

The reality is that you're an ignorant douche.

and in fact, there`s a University of Indiana study that came out three days ago that showed that kids process these games in the part of the brain that leads to copycatting.

Ah yes, the all-important copycatting lobe. I bet you ten bucks that study has nothing to do with what he's talking about.

GRACE: Incredible! Incredible! I can hardly even focus on what you`re saying, Jack. Elizabeth, please continue showing it because what I`m looking at is the picture of one cop after the next, Dino Lombardi, that we are showing gunned down in the line of duty, Dino!

FUCK, ALL THOSE POOR LINES OF CODE, DYING BEFORE MY VERY EYES! THERE IS NOTHING SENSATIONALISTIC ABOUT THIS!!!!!!!!!

DINO LOMBARDI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, people kill cops. Video games don`t kill cops.

Great argument, cocksmoker.

GRACE: OK. You know what? I knew you`d say that. Debra Opri?

DEBRA OPRI, ATTORNEY FOR JACKSON`S PARENTS: You know, you are really upsetting me, Nancy, because you used the 1st Amendment to destroy Michael Jackson, and you won`t use the 1st Amendment to protect an entertainment company. Does anybody remember Charlie Chaplin in the early days of movies, silent movies? He picked on cops. He attacked cops. He was such a problem to Herbert Hoover and the FBI...

Hmm, a somewhat interesting and valid point, though with little actual relevance to the debate. Television personalities on news channels such as CNN love to drag people through the mud or sensationalize something like a missing girl in a foreign country for ratings and money, yet still attempt to take the moral high ground on issues that simply do not matter, in an ultimate display of hypocrisy. Let's see how the host responds.

GRACE: OK, you know what?

GRACE: Thank you for bringing up Herbert Hoover and Charlie Chaplin.

WHAT THE FUCK!

OPRI: Can I tell you something?

GRACE: When we come back, we`ll be talking about 25 to Life. You`re seeing a line-up of one cop after the next killed in the line of duty. And this video machine is being marketed and sold. It comes out in August on the shelves of stores in your neighborhood. Look at this.

Jesus Christ. Yeah, cut to the commercials before she makes you look like a moron, good work.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Well, Senator Chuck Schumer is asking the video game 25 to Life be boycotted. It depicts street gang violence, killing cops. This is what your kids will be digesting if you buy this for $49.95. You`re seeing at the bottom of the screen one law officer after the next gunned down in the line of duty.

Well, I disagree, but guess what?! That's his right to not buy the game! As well as every one else's! If you think it will hurt your children, DON'T FUCKING BUY IT! They make these games because they sell like murder sim hotcakes! What a novel new concept this "free country" and "free market" thing is!

To Bethany Marshall. You know, the U.S. Supreme Court just ruled in 2003 -- I`ve got it right in front of me -- that video games have nothing to do with violence. Thoughts?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I`ll tell you what does have do with violence, strong emotional experiences.

Strong emotional experiences make you violent? Well, I guess I did go on that crime spree shortly after my first kiss.

And when those kids are gaming and they press the button or the mouse and they actually kill somebody

THEY DON'T ACTUALLY KILL SOMEBODY YOU STUPID TWAT!!! PLEASE EAT A BAG OF HELL!

and there`s an emotional charge that does rewire the brain. And another thing that affects violence is lack of parental rules. So a question I have with these games are, Where are the parents.

They are out not worrying about a fucking video game because they know they have a well-adjusted, well-loved child at home who does not automatically turn into a bloodthirsty killing machine at the first sign of violence on the TV screen! And she's the one with the doctorate. Jesus Christ on crutches this is unbelievable. They needed a Ph.D to say, "Where da parents at?!"

GRACE: You know, Dino Lombardi, I`ve only got one minute left. But in the last Tennessee shooting, where a kid shot two cops and a third person, they had been watching this Grand Theft Auto for days on end. It said life is like a video game. And you`re still telling me this is OK?

What the fuck are you talking about? Well... my counterargument for what I think she's asking is up top.

LOMBARDI: Well, I`m not saying it`s OK, but I don`t support censoring it.

Once again, incredible debating powers from this man. Vince Lombardi is rolling over in his grave, and I bet you two aren't even related.

GRACE: Yes, you are!

LOMBARDI: I`m not saying it`s OK, Nancy.

GRACE: We censor porn...

LOMBARDI: ... and you know I`m not saying it`s OK.

GRACE: ... don`t we? We censor porn. Why would we let there be cop- shooting videos?

No, actually we don't fucking censor porn. You're just not supposed to view it until you're 18. We also don't censor cop-shooting "videos" because of something called FREEDOM OF Expression, and with my right of freedom of expression I'm going to express my wish for you to SHUT THE FUCK UP! Also, guess what? It's your society that decided violence was less offensive than naked people, it's your network that shows things like beheadings by Islamic extremists for ratings, and it's your own program that is showing clip after clip after clip of the most violent scenes from this game, to people who would normally never see it because they don't want to! Gaaah!

LOMBARDI: We have movies where cops are killed, and we have many instances of people who have killed...

GRACE: But kids can get this!

OH FUCK, KIDS CAN'T GET MOVIES NO SIREE BOB!!!

LOMBARDI: ... who we can show they can have watched such movies.

GRACE: Jack...

LOMBARDI: It`s not...

GRACE: ... children can get this, Jack Thompson!

LOMBARDI: Yes. The 1st Amendment, people who understand the 1st Amendment know does not protect the right of a company to sell an M-rated game to a child.

Sure it does, until they make a law that says they can't! OH WAIT, THEY DID!!!

GRACE: Jack, Jack, I`ve...

THOMPSON: Children don`t have a 1st Amendment...

They don't have all the rights adults have, but last time I checked they were, oh, you know, ALLOWED TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES IN ANY WAY THEY CHOOSE AS WELL AS PRACTICE WHATEVER RELIGION THEY WANT!!! DIE!!!

GRACE: ... only got 20 seconds. Jack...

THOMPSON: Yes?

GRACE: ... we logged on to buy Grand Theft Auto. We didn`t buy it, but it says, If you`re under 17, click here. That`s all it takes, Jack. Anybody can get this.

You should have been a blow job.

THOMPSON: Exactly. And there`s no penalty, except in Illinois...

GRACE: Boy!

THOMPSON: ... if you sell...

GRACE: OK.

THOMPSON: ... a game like this to a child.

GRACE: Guys, we`ve run out of time. I want to thank all of my guests tonight, but my biggest thank you, as always, to you for being with us, inviting all of us into your home.

Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off again for tonight. I hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END



So, in conclusion, it's not video games that lead to violent behavior. It's fucking ignorant douche bags spouting pure, unfiltered bullshit from their foul mouths on national television, thinking that freedom of speech should only be allowed if they agree with what is said, that lead to violent behavior!!! From me, at least!

*Note: Most of the time CNN is okay. In fact, all news networks are cool when they just report the news, even if it is stupid shit no one cares about. It's these opinion shows that are just awful. CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, whatever, they all have this problem in some form or another. I'm not picking on CNN exclusively.

[TJKitsune]

*falls out of his chair, laughing his ass off*

Woot! Wonderfully said, Sway. I applaud you and my co-workers are giving strange looks, even though they already knew I was on crack.

[Lord Shmeckie]

This Grace chick is a fucking idiot, and shows one of the many reasons I hate CNN. Those diatribes she went on, and those dumbass guests, whatever show she hosts must suck ass.

Geez, and people say O'Reilly's uptight. At least he never went on anti-game rants like that (though an off-the-cuff comment seemed to be enough to make X-Play dedicate half their show to being mad at O'Reilly, but X-Play sucks ass anyway).

Fuck CNN anyway, they're all just a bunch of dumbasses over there, save a few respectable folk.

[Sway]

Lord Shmeckie, on Jun 23 2005, 03:13 PM, said:

This Grace chick is a fucking idiot

No kidding, half the things she said sounded like forum posts at GameFAQs.

"... we logged on to buy Grand Theft Auto. We didn`t buy it, but it says, If you`re under 17, click here. That`s all it takes, Jack. Anybody can get this."

[Lord Shmeckie]

The funny thing is that's pretty accurate, too.

Y'know, I'm beginning to see why CNN is getting killed in the ratings. Ah, sweet justice.

[Master of AFTER]

Godammit, I am so sick of people going ape shit over violent video games every fucking time someone under 20 shoots one of his teachers or they release a game that lets you kill cops. I've said it many times before and I'll say it many more times again: Video games do NOT make law-abiding, well-adjusted, non-crazy ass people do bad things! If someone commits a real-life act of violence, then he or she was fucked up in the head to begin with and what video games they played in between killings didn't do one goddamn thing to influence their actions one way or another!

MAN! I can't wait until they release a mod for Half-Life 2 that lets you gun down everyone at CNN.

[Sway]

I ALREADY SAID THAT MOA GOD DAMNIT I'LL KILL YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Master of AFTER]

Jeez Sway, I was just articulating a similar train of thought in my own words to express agreement. There was no need for you to get all--

SUCKER SHOT!!!! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! FUCK YEAH BONUS POINTS!!! I HATE THE POLICE!!!!!!

[Lord Shmeckie]

You mean the PO-LICE!!!!!! Get it right das how CJ sez it in San Andray-us, biyotch! WOOF WOOF WOOF!!!!!! DUGGA DUGGA DUGGA!!!!!!!

[Invader Tails]

*first nonstaffpost*
I've only watched CNN once by choice, and that was the Michael Jackson trial, but this is still pretty stupid.
Does she know that if you click you're under 17 on a videogame site, that they redirect you?, also the parents will see the game on their fricken credit cards or see it in the mail and ask what it is.

She obviously lost her brain cells with Lucy in the sky. I've done a poll of local game companies around my area, and they will not sell M-rated games without ID checking. (it was for a letter to the editor) Also, children can get movies the way she seems to now by using the internet and clicking you aren't under 17....

[Selatein]

Yea, let's not forget that most merchants won't sell M rated games to anyone under 17. Yea, true, if a child gets his Parent's credit card, they can't do anything about that, but, then again, a parent should be more responsible than that.

At any rate, as if it's really all that frequent that someone under the age of 17 actually gets their hands on $50 plus tax. I mean, most kids I know don't have jobs, so, how would they get it, anyways?

When it comes down to it, I don't worry about M rated games. I worry about parents who neglect their child(ren). I mean, even in a non-violent environment, negected children can still do some pretty horrible stuff.

But, let's not forget about other forms of media, people! I mean, how many times have you seen a Fatality in a PG-13 movie? I'm pretty sure that there are deaths in PG-13 movies, and, on top of that, you can be any age to get into a PG-13 movie, they don't check for IDs on children.

Oh, yea, and the whole "censor porn" thing was just retarded.

[Project Z.E.R.O.]

Interesting. I have seen one of the latest GTA's.......I hated it. I'll bet at least 90% of this message board has users that own or love to play GTA. The worst part is, there are people on here from ages 10-40+ on this site. Violence sells. As Sway said, tons of kids play "Cops and Robbers". Almost everyone had played that game when they were kids, even my Dad admits to it. That means nothing because they don't actually get to think they are killing a cop. In GTA, you kill cops, run over civilians, destroy buildings, ect.. Idiots that cannot control themselves bring this to real life, because the feeling in the game is so fun to them. Worst part is, these games also promote drugs. Geez, why do they just make kids think that suicide is fun, too! The games where you kill aliens and stuff, aren't as bad. Yeh, some retard will let his imagination run wild and think someone is an alien and his dad's gun collection is a collection of lasers. He/she might kill the other person. Chances of that are very slim compared to the effects of GTA style games. These games SHOULD be banned. You cannot stop kids from getting their hands on them. I hate them and think they are disgusting and cruel.

(Sorry I stated the obvious. )

[Sway]

So you are saying people cannot control themselves or differentiate between what's real and fake and what's right and wrong after playing a game like this, simply due to the power of suggestion?

I can't say I agree with you. Do you have any real evidence?

[Nine]

If I may cut in, there was a similar incident involving kids playing Grand Theft Auto 3 a couple years back. Kids literally went out and committed crimes due to what content was within the game. I just tried to websearch this back it up, but no luck. I actually had seen thison the news. And yes, Rockstar, I believe, has been sued for this game a few times. I don't blame people for saying video games corrupt people. I believe it's for the people who are realistic enough to realise it's just a fuckin' game.

[Sway]

So they played the game, and decided to try what they saw for themselves? I don't believe it. If anything, it was just baseless claims like what the above transcript is full of. Someone mentions the kid owned the game and the reporter fills in the rest, or the kid/parents/defense attorney places blame elsewhere to try to gain sympathy for sentencing. Being sued also does not mean you've done something wrong, especially not in the United States.

So I'm really going to need to see hard evidence from an opposing viewpoint to take it seriously.

[Nine]

Dang... I wish I could find that article somewhere... *Searches* I'll get back to you on that one. Also their conviction was definate.

Edit: Okay, Razor found something for me. I think this is it:

Quote

Police curious about similarities between deadly beating and video game

In his blue race-car slippers, 4-year-old Tyler Robinson's focus is on the big-screen TV, where "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City" takes him to a sinister world.

It is one of his favorite places to go after preschool.

Armed with a PlayStation 2 controller, Tyler becomes a gangster who runs down pedestrians with a car then gets out to pound them with video fists. He can even shoot cops and prostitutes with make-believe Uzis.

It was at Tyler's Wyoming home where fantasy may have brushed up against reality.

Two men accused of running down Jerry Steinberg with a car, then beating and kicking him into a coma, visited the boy's home about two hours before the Nov. 17 attack.

They had spent part of the previous night drinking beer and playing "Grand Theft Auto III" at another Wyoming home, friends and relatives of one of the suspects have said.

After attacking Steinberg, they played the video game again, police were told.

Meanwhile, about five miles away, Steinberg's family gathered at Saint Mary's Mercy Medical Center, where hospital monitors surrounded the slenderly built man.

Doctors told them Steinberg had less than a 10 percent chance of survival. The 38-year-old father of three died six days later.

Wyoming Police Lt. Paul Robinson said detectives are intrigued by the possibility that Brian Davidson, 24, and his alleged accomplice, 18-year-old Michael Emery, of Kentwood, were playing out a scene from Grand Theft Auto. Steinberg apparently was an arbitrary victim -- in the wrong place at the wrong time.

"It certainly is an interesting twist," Robinson said. "You can certainly see the parallels."

Considering the violence of today's video games, Robinson said, he wouldn't be surprised by such a link.

"When we were kids, we played cops and robbers, and we always wanted to be the cops," he said. "The cops were the good guys. Look at what this game portrays. The good guy is the killer."

Grand Theft Auto III is the third in a series of Grand Theft Auto video games. It has been the top-selling video game in recent years, but was banned in Australia for its sexual violence.

The fourth and latest edition, "Vice City," includes the music of Ozzy Osbourne and Michael Jackson. It is among the Top 12 most violent toys and games of this Christmas season, according to a watchdog group.

"Grand Theft Auto III" and "Vice City" carry a "Mature" rating for audiences 17 and older.

The men charged with killing Steinberg last month embraced the games -- as did friends and family, according to those who move in their circles.

Indeed, similarities between the game and what happened to Steinberg are uncanny, police say.

In the game, players use cars to run down pedestrians. They can choose the "fist" symbol to beat victims, leaving a bloody body on the sidewalk or street.

It sounds a lot like what happened to Steinberg shortly after 5 a.m. on Nov. 17, police said.

Davidson was driving his dark blue Honda Accord, police said, when he and Emery saw a potential target: a Press carrier delivering Sunday's paper on a bicycle south of 36th Street near South Division Avenue. She apparently was spared because somebody in the car knew her.

Next they spied a couple strolling through a restaurant parking lot. As the Honda raced towards them, the couple jumped to safety, police said.

Then there was Steinberg, riding his bike on Walter Street, just east of South Division. The Honda slammed into Steinberg, police said, sending him to the ground. Steinberg was unconscious when his attackers returned a short time later, now joined by two females.

But this was not a mission of mercy -- the men and one of the girls, 16-year-Natasha Toothman, took turns stomping and punching Steinberg, police said. He suffered at least 20 blows, fracturing his skull, breaking his nose and four ribs.

The suspects never told police they were re-enacting the game. But attorney John Beason, who is defending Davidson, said he also is intrigued by possible parallels. Although he isn't familiar with Grand Theft Auto, he said he plans to rent it to see for himself.

"I'm going to get my grandson to show me how to play it," said Beason, whose grandson is 23 years old.

'Dirty Dozen'

"Grand Theft Auto: Vice City" made this year's "Dirty Dozen" list of violent "toys to avoid" published by the Lion &Lamb Project, a Maryland-based watchdog group.

Group founder Daphne White said she's not surprised such violent games could be connected to real-life violence.

But research cannot provide a direct link between video games and violence, White acknowledged. "The video game industry will say we can't prove it. That's true, but the correlations are there."

A spokeswoman for Take-Two Interactive Software Inc., the New York-based parent company of Rockstar North, which created the Grand Theft Auto series, refused to comment on the potential link to the death.

She also refused to comment about violence in the game. "We would like to extend our deepest sympathies to those affected by these tragic events," spokeswoman Dawn Berrie wrote in an e-mail response.

Other possible factors

Friends and relatives of the Wyoming suspects said if the game played a role in the attack, it was minor. Alcohol and other factors contributed, they contend.

Besides being drunk, Davidson, who was unemployed, was dealing with the break-up of his marriage and was unable to see his young child, friends said. As his marriage dissolved, he returned this summer to Wyoming after living with his family in Mount Pleasant.

Davidson told investigators he punched Steinberg and kicked him, police said in a court affidavit.

Toothman admitted kicking the man two to four times in the head, police said. The tiny, brown-haired 16-year-old from Wyoming has a history of assaults dating back to when she was 11.

Emery has refused to talk with police.

For Davidson and his friends, it wasn't unusual to party into the early morning, which is what they did on Sunday, Nov. 17, according to those with them.

For part of the night, they were drinking beer and playing Grand Theft Auto III on the big-screen TV at a home on Eastern Avenue SE near 36th Street, according to James "Pudgy" Robinson, Davidson's childhood friend.

Davidson, Toothman, Emery and Emery's girlfriend, 18-year-old Krystyne Kiogima, were among the group, said Robinson, 24.

In the wee hours of the morning, Davidson, Emery and the women left, he said. Kiogima and Toothman were dropped off at Toothman's home nearby. Davidson and Emery then drove off.

Davidson grew up in Wyoming and attended Godwin Heights High School. He was a scrawny kid but wanted to box and later joined the Golden Gloves, recalled David Robinson, the brother of James Robinson.

Davidson is now 6 feet tall and weighs 265 pounds with tattoos up and down his arms. He has a history of minor crimes, including marijuana possession.

About 3 a.m. Nov. 17, Davidson and Emery appeared on David Robinson's doorstep in a working-class Wyoming neighborhood of older homes. Robinson's son, Tyler, slept inside. The two-story home on Burt Street SE is just two blocks from where Steinberg was staying.

Though "stumbling drunk" and carrying a bottle of Budweiser, Davidson was allowed inside. Emery, however, was told to stay on the porch -- "I didn't know him," said David Robinson's wife, Tracy.

Like Davidson, Emery also has a criminal history, but with more serious offenses including burglary and car theft.

Davidson had a favor to ask. His estranged wife wanted to have a tattoo party. The Robinsons agreed to host it at their home the following weekend.

After the 10-minute visit, Davidson and Emery left in Davidson's car.

Police believe the two then started targeting pedestrians.

John Marzean, 22, said he was pushing his bicycle while walking a girl home shortly after 5 a.m. when he spotted the blue Honda Accord with a loud exhaust. It came at them in the parking lot of Wendy's restaurant.

The driver, Marzean said, had "an angry look on his face." They barely escaped.

Marzean owns one of the earlier versions of Grand Theft Auto and knows the game well. "It felt like the same exact thing," he said.

Steve Robinson, the brother of James and David, said the three suspects and Kiogima stopped by his house either Sunday or early Monday. He had heard nothing about the beating, and nobody talked about it, he said.

They played euchre and Grand Theft Auto III on his big-screen TV, he said.

"It's a game that everyone plays," Steve Robinson said. "Who doesn't play it?"

But, he said, everyone knows it's just fantasy.

"Real life is working 12 hours a day and paying my bills," he said. "There are (video) games where you can jump off buildings and not get hurt. Do you see kids doing that?"

About 3 a.m. Tuesday, Nov. 19, Wyoming Police Officer Shad McGinnis was working radar patrol on Eastern Avenue SE, south of 36th, when he spotted a blue Honda Accord with flip-up headlights and a loud exhaust.

He stopped the car, which matched the description of the vehicle in Sunday's attack. McGinnis should know -- he was the first officer on the scene of the beating two days earlier.

Tracy Robinson said she couldn't believe it when she saw Brian Davidson on the news, accused in the Sunday attack.

"I was speechless," she said. "That's not him. He's a sweetheart, very polite, very respectful."

But there is another side of Davidson, her husband said. He likes to fight, he said, and he's easily influenced.

"Brian is the kind of person, who, once he starts to fight, he's a knockout person. He hits hard, he kicks hard, he goes to the extreme," David Robinson said.

What's real, what's not

Tracy Robinson said the game should not be blamed for the death.

"It doesn't take a genius to figure out it's just a game," she said. "If you can't figure out what's real and what's not, don't play it."

At age 4, her son, Tyler, has become good at "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City."

He was playing it last week after preschool when his father took the controller to demonstrate the game.

The player is a gangster and earns money for his sinister acts. He can get ahead in the game by hiring a prostitute, then beating her to get his money back.

"You can choose guns, Uzis, swords, Molotov cocktails," David Robinson said. "Here, I'm going to blow up a boat. Watch it sink."

"It's sinking," his son pointed out.

David Robinson chose a sword as his weapon and slashed at a make-believe man. Blood squirted from his victim.

"Any car that comes by, I can steal it," he said. "There's a person, I just ran him over. I can just run down the sidewalk and run over anybody."

David Robinson said he believes the game isn't bad for his son. "This doesn't teach him anything," he said. "I teach him everything he knows."

"Daddy, you're dying," the boy pointed out as his father's character was shot repeatedly.

"He can play this game all day long, but he knows I've got shotguns and rifles in the closet," his father said. "He won't touch them. He knows they kill."

Retrieved from: http://www.fradical....imilarities.htm

This post has been edited by Mugen: 25 June 2005 - 02:49 AM

[Master of AFTER]

I could write a six-page reply to that, but I'm tired, so I'll keep it sort and simple: The Grand Theft Auto games are a case of art imitating life. In real life, people run over, shoot, stab, and murder other people all the time, and they have been doing so since long before video games were even invented. To say that every time someone does something in real life similar to something they can do in a video games was done because of that video game is insanity.

[Sway]

Quote

The suspects never told police they were re-enacting the game.

Quote

But research cannot provide a direct link between video games and violence,

Quote

Friends and relatives of the Wyoming suspects said if the game played a role in the attack, it was minor. Alcohol and other factors contributed, they contend.

Besides being drunk, Davidson, who was unemployed, was dealing with the break-up of his marriage and was unable to see his young child, friends said. As his marriage dissolved, he returned this summer to Wyoming after living with his family in Mount Pleasant.

Those are all direct quotes from the article. Basically, this is yet another case of making connections without any real logical progression or evidence supporting it. I'll let the quotes I pulled speak for themselves; what I want to say is that a violent game, movie, or hey, even book, can certainly give you ideas for violent crimes to commit, but if you go through with it, you were going to do them anyway. Bottom line. The bullies at school drove you to this point, or you being behind on the bills with no source of income in sight caused this. Just being insane caused this. But no one who was perfectly normal to begin with will let fictional events corrupt them to the extreme degree that is being claimed. At most, a game like GTA will make a well-adjusted individual less horrified by terrible events shown on the news. Any moron can differentiate what's real and what's fake. The new organizations just don't seem to believe that, and so I choose not to believe them.

[Fading Light]

...Damn...Sway said everything I was going to....I had a 50 page essay waiting...but Sway said it all...Hold on...let me find a comic that explains how we feel: