[Sway]

http://kotaku.com/56...version-of-game

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Once you finish playing next month's Metroid: Other M on the Wii, you can watch it. A "theater mode" will stitch the game's cut-scenes and some pre-recorded gameplay into a Samus epic.

This news comes from an interview with Other M creators in Famitsu, as translated by 1Up.com:

The storytelling aspect of Other M continues to play a major role even after you beat the game, the way [Nintendo designer Yoshio] Sakamoto puts it. "There's a 'theater mode' that lets you view all of the cutscenes linked together seamlessly as a single movie," he explained. "We placed just as much weight on enjoying the story as we did on the action aspects of this game, but it's hard to fully communicate a storyline in a video game with just one playthrough. At the same time, though, it's asking a lot of players to beat the game twice to get it all, so that's where the idea for that mode came from. It lets you make a lot of discoveries, things you missed or dialogue that makes more sense in retrospect. I hope it helps people understand the story better."

This theater-mode movie is about two hours in length and divided into chapters like a DVD film. It's not just the movie cutscenes straight from the game, though — there's some pre-recorded gameplay bits to it as well, although those sections aren't recorded off your own moves as you beat the game. "I wanted to do that," Sakamoto said, "but we're using our own sample play data instead because that's also a way of giving the player hints — like, you can beat this particular boss this way too, and so forth."

Ever since Gunpei Yokoi died, I feel like the Metroid series has been going downhill, just slightly. The Retro Studios Prime games were alright (although still not really Metroid IMO), and Zero Mission was good, but Fusion suffered from some poor design choices IMO, and everyone hates Hunters. Nintendo is teetering on the edge with the franchise where Sega was post-SA2. I was hearing things from current Metroid producers about how the most important thing in Super Metroid was Samus' relationship with the baby metroid, and I knew they really did not get it.

2 hours of cutscenes, making the story very prominent -- this is fucking bullshit in a Metroid game, and the focus on a likely terrible story is what helped cause the Sonic franchise to crash. Metroid is about exploration, a silent protagonist, and some great boss battles. And no, this isn't just in movie mode, the cutscenes are in there when you actually play. I'm worried about the franchise, and this is not helping. The game may very well be good, but I feel like what made Metriod great keeps getting pushed out of the picture more and more and we're getting Metal Gear or something.

Anyone agree? Disagree?

[Gold_TSG]

I agree for the most part, but I don't want to throw around my nerd rage til I've at least experienced it.

[???????]

First off, I know it's your personal opinion, but I'm calling bullshit on the Prime trilogy not being Metroid-like. Although I'm a total Metroid fanboy, I still haven't played Hunters, so I can't comment on that game, but common complaints I've heard involving that game is that it has more focus on the multiplayer aspect than it does the single player mode.

My main problems with Fusion (especially) and Corruption were the fact that, due to the larger emphasis on the story, the single player gameplay became more linear and, after learning that there is even more story in this game, I became fearful, but it seems like the gameplay will remain great, although it seems like it'll be even more linear than Fusion, which saddens me. Hearing this news brings back some of the old fear I had, but I'm able to hold onto hope by remembering that there really hasn't been a bad Metroid game yet, save maybe Hunters, and considering that the explorable world will probably be much larger than in any other Metroid game, especially considering that the game switches between 2.5D and 3D.

As for the story, I don't expect it to be bad at all, but this is coming from somebody who loves the Metroid-verse's story so far. I'd love it if most of these cutscenes were accessed via scanning a la the lore in the Prime games, making the majority of the story totally optional, but, given all that I know about this game, this isn't likely.

Edit:

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I was hearing things from current Metroid producers about how the most important thing in Super Metroid was Samus' relationship with the baby Metroid, and I knew they really did not get it.

Okay, I forgot to talk about this. What? I'd like to see whatever the hell you got that from. I have a feeling they wold just be talking about the minimal story, not the overall gameplay, if they did say this.

Edit 2:

Okay, so I just noticed two other things (blame me missing this shit on the fact that I saw this almost immediately after waking up), one of which Sway left out from his post:

Not everything is going to be a cutscene. Some of it's just prerecorded gameplay. We don't know how much of it's prerecorded gameplay.

The thing he didn't include in his post was the part about how the developers don't have enough faith in their players to find more than 30% of the items in their first run. Do you know just how little that is? I'd say that, even if the game is story heavy and linear, the exploration aspect appears to remain in tact. Going back to the first point, I doubt any of that video's going to specifically focus on the item hunting unless getting an item is necessary to proceed or is on the path the the next goal.

These two bits of info just made me feel a LOT better. Hell, assuming most of that movie mode is just prerecorded gameplay a la New Super Mario Bros. Wii's videos that can be viewed in the castle, I think I may be even more excited for this game than I was before.

This post has been edited by ???????: 03 August 2010 - 02:12 AM

[Sway]

???????, on 02 August 2010 - 08:16 PM, said:

First off, I know it's your personal opinion, but I'm calling bullshit on the Prime trilogy not being Metroid-like.

Err... how are you calling bullshit then? Maybe just say you disagree? I hate scanning, number one, and the translation of the screw attack and the often shitty bosses. I don't like the introduction of bottomless pits. I don't like the visors. I don't like Echoes especially, with all the stupid shit they added to that game -- the dark world is awful. I just don't think it reminds me enough of the 2D games, which are some of my favorites. Doesn't mean they're bad (Echoes is bad), it just means it didn't capture the feel for me, the same way let's say Sonic Rush did not capture the feel of Sonic for me. Despite my pessimism, I am hoping Other M pulls it off the way the Primes did not. Keep in mind I have not played Corruption, though.

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My main problems with Fusion (especially) and Corruption were the fact that, due to the larger emphasis on the story, the single player gameplay became more linear and, after learning that there is even more story in this game, I became fearful, but it seems like the gameplay will remain great, although it seems like it'll be even more linear than Fusion, which saddens me. Hearing this news brings back some of the old fear I had, but I'm able to hold onto hope by remembering that there really hasn't been a bad Metroid game yet, save maybe Hunters, and considering that the explorable world will probably be much larger than in any other Metroid game, especially considering that the game switches between 2.5D and 3D.

Agree with your concerns and agree with your hope, adding that I think Echoes sucks though.

Quote

Okay, I forgot to talk about this. What? I'd like to see whatever the hell you got that from. I have a feeling they wold just be talking about the minimal story, not the overall gameplay, if they did say this.

Well, I should have said one producer, but he's the guy in charge. I feel like his understanding of what gamers took away from Super Metroid is indicative of the completely wrong attitude.

From http://www.gamasutra...hio_.php?page=2

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YS: Well, certainly, when we were making Super Metroid, I thought, "I want to make something lasting that will be fun even if played much later." All I can say is I'm really happy that we succeeded in that goal. But, if I had to take a guess as to what the lasting appeal is, perhaps it's the impression left on people by the drama of the game. You have the baby Metroid who's stolen in the beginning Super Metroid, and Samus goes after the baby.

The baby is getting larger and larger as it grows and feeds, and when they are first reunited the baby Metroid attacks Samus but then remembers who Samus is and runs off. Later, when Samus is in trouble, that baby Metroid comes back and helps her.

All of these dramatic moments really are connected to the strong feelings that people have about relationships, and that leaves quite an impression on you. I guess, if there's any lasting appeal for the game, that has to come from the deep impression that's left by that sort of thing.

(Give me a fucking break.)

Quote

Not everything is going to be a cutscene. Some of it's just prerecorded gameplay. We don't know how much of it's prerecorded gameplay.

The way I kept hearing it prior to this news is two hours of cutscenes, and in this mode it's two hours plus the gameplay. Regardless, I am not pleased about them piling on more and more story over time. It's not even interesting, thus far at least.

[Gold_TSG]

Fusion sucked, and my current speedrun record for Zero Mission is 50:34.

[???????]

Sway, on 03 August 2010 - 10:35 PM, said:

Err... how are you calling bullshit then? Maybe just say you disagree? I hate scanning, number one, and the translation of the screw attack and the often shitty bosses. I don't like the introduction of bottomless pits. I don't like the visors. I don't like Echoes especially, with all the stupid shit they added to that game -- the dark world is awful. I just don't think it reminds me enough of the 2D games, which are some of my favorites. Doesn't mean they're bad (Echoes is bad), it just means it didn't capture the feel for me, the same way let's say Sonic Rush did not capture the feel of Sonic for me. Despite my pessimism, I am hoping Other M pulls it off the way the Primes did not. Keep in mind I have not played Corruption, though.

Sway, on 03 August 2010 - 10:35 PM, said:

Agree with your concerns and agree with your hope, adding that I think Echoes sucks though.

Funny, Echoes is actually my favorite game, in terms of style and gameplay. This is coming from somebody who loves Super.

Bottomless pits weren't that bad, save maybe a few rooms with really annoying enemies in the Sanctuary Fortress in Echoes.

Scanning wasn't bad. If you only did it when required or when trying to figure out the weakness of certain enemies, you wouldn't be doing it nearly as much as you would if you were trying to learn every bit of detail the game had to give you. Honestly, I found it fun and fitting that a game based on exploration gave you the ability to learn about your surroundings and the conflicts that took place before your arrival (or during your stay, in the Pirates' case).

How would you have the Screw Attack work in the Prime games? Personally, I thought it was implemented pretty well, especially given the limitations. It, combining its features with the Space Jump, being only able to make five consecutive straight forward movements that also count as devastating attacks seemed pretty reasonable. Also liked the Wall Jump areas, although I do have to admit that I wish that Retro would've found more ways to use the Screw Attack.

I'm honestly surprised that you hated the bosses. Aside from Echoes' Boost Guardian and Corruption's Dark Samus and Mogenar, both on the Hyper Mode difficulty, I'd have to say none of the bosses really pissed me off. The fight against the Boost Guardian was just plain unfair and Mogenar, on the Hyper Mode difficulty was really tedious and deadly if you weren't very careful. Dark Samus (first) on the Hyper Mode difficulty is the hardest fight in any Metroid game, though. That shit somehow feels really cheap and legitimately tough at the same time. What sucks even more is that the planet is slowly killing you in that fight, so it's really easy to die at the beginning of the second fight, even if you don't get hit.

The bosses in the Prim games were a hell of a lot more creative, numerous, and fun than the ones in the 2D games, although I will admit that some of the sub-bosses in Corruption have the tendency to jump and cause a shockwave as they're crashing down.

As far as special visors go, save the scan and command visor, they were pretty much the equivalent of the X-Ray Scope in Super, except required to proceed in the game. I didn't find having to switch between them to be bothersome in the least bit aside from getting used to pointing the Wii remote to switch in Corruption, but I got used that as quickly as I did everything else that was changed because of the new motion controls.

The Dark World isn't awful, save for the time where you have to fight the Boost Guardian, where shit becomes needlessly hard, especially if you haven't collected every Energy Tank you could before that point. Aside from that, though, it really wasn't that bad, especially after getting the Dark Suit. My problem with the Dark World is how many of its areas are not connected and how some of the features in the Light World aren't there in the Dark World and don't have an equivalent. If Retro done those things, I think the Dark World would've been a lot better.

The only other (legit) complaint I can see one making against Echoes is how you're required to find three keys to unlock every main boss, then nine to unlock the last one and the amount of backtracking, which is present in all the games. The former isn't so bad once you realize that many of these keys are in plain sight and that you're actually given really obvious hints as to where the last set of keys are. The latter may be irritating, but that hardly destroyed my ability to enjoy the game.

Anyway, I was calling bullshit because they are Metroid games at their core, the only significant differences being that they're in a 3D plane, in first person, require scanning, and have certain limitations that the 2D games don't. I understand what you mean with that comparison to the newer 2D Sonic games, though I still feel like I'm playing a Metroid game when I play the Prime Trilogy. Especially the first Prime, often dubbed as Super Metroid in 3D.

Sway, on 03 August 2010 - 10:35 PM, said:

Well, I should have said one producer, but he's the guy in charge. I feel like his understanding of what gamers took away from Super Metroid is indicative of the completely wrong attitude.

From http://www.gamasutra...hio_.php?page=2


(Give me a fucking break.)

Ah, wow, that is pretty terrible. I hope that he realized what the gameplay should be like, for the most part. Like I was saying before, their lack of faith in the players in terms of item collection gives me a lot of hope, so I'm going to assume that he did and just feels that the story is more important.

Gold_TSG, on 03 August 2010 - 10:52 PM, said:

Fusion sucked, and my current speedrun record for Zero Mission is 50:34.

I disagree. It was linear due to having a deeper story, yes, but it was still pretty good, IMO.

[Gold_TSG]

I have legit reasons behind why I think Fusion sucked, but I'm not typing all that out on my Wii.

Get your ass on AIM and I'll elaborate.

This post has been edited by Gold_TSG: 04 August 2010 - 04:55 AM

[Sway]

???????, on 03 August 2010 - 11:43 PM, said:

Words

Man, I don't give a shit what your rationale is, I didn't like it. Agree to disagree.

But for the record, the screw attack should have not been combined with the space jump, and the whole series should have been third person a la Gears of War, or much of Other M. Then you'd just do a flip and wreck some indigenous wildlife. Maybe it could still work first person if they make it quick enough to switch views.

But I do honestly think the whole thing should have been third person.

[???????]

Gold_TSG, on 03 August 2010 - 11:53 PM, said:

I have legit reasons behind why I think Fusion sucked, but I'm not typing all that out on my Wii.

Get your ass on AIM and I'll elaborate.

I'll do it later. Stopped playing a game to make that long-ass post and I just fucked up, causing me to have to start over.

Sway, on 04 August 2010 - 12:39 AM, said:

Man, I don't give a shit what your rationale is, I didn't like it. Agree to disagree.

I wasn't so much as trying to justify the things you were complaining about and change your mind about the games, but rather attempting to understand why you had problems with them. In other words, I was trying to get you to make me see things your way while telling you how I saw them. I could've just asked you to explain why each of these things were a problem for you and left it at that, but I thought it wouldn't be a bad idea to state why I didn't think they were bad. To be frank, it really bothers me when people make certain complaints that really don't make much sense to me and then refuse to tell me why they feel the way that they do.

Eh, but whatever. I'm not gonna bother you about it anymore.

[Gold_TSG]

Get on AIM tonight after 11pm eastern. I have a lot of legit bashing on Fusion you need to hear.

[???????]

Okay, okay, fine! I think I'll be able to anticipate all of your complaints ahead of time, so I'll let you know which I saw coming and which came as a surprise to me.

Also, shit, I need to hurry up and reserve Other M so I can get that artbook.

[Sway]

???????, on 04 August 2010 - 01:17 AM, said:

I wasn't so much as trying to justify the things you were complaining about and change your mind about the games, but rather attempting to understand why you had problems with them. In other words, I was trying to get you to make me see things your way while telling you how I saw them. I could've just asked you to explain why each of these things were a problem for you and left it at that, but I thought it wouldn't be a bad idea to state why I didn't think they were bad. To be frank, it really bothers me when people make certain complaints that really don't make much sense to me and then refuse to tell me why they feel the way that they do.

Eh, but whatever. I'm not gonna bother you about it anymore.

I didn't mean so sound like a dick, I just can't bear to write that much about a game I don't like and/or things I don't like in a series of games.

Briefly -- bottomless pits aren't bad, but they're dumb in Metroid and especially in a FPS; don't care, scanning sucks and isn't Metroid, and the echo visor was the worst thing; some bosses were good, most were very tedious and slow-paced (i.e. switching visors all the time, waiting endlessly for them to become damageable, etc.).

Like I said, agree to disagree. I don't think that anyone would be saying, "This is exactly like a 3D [Super] Metroid [Fusion/Zero Mission]!" if "Metroid" was not in the title and they replaced the morph ball with a Solid Snake crawl or something. Just my (highly unchangeable) opinion.

[Master of AFTER]

Thank you so much for all of this, Sway. You've voiced my own opinions about this game and why it's likely going to suck down to the grittiest detail, which is great for me because the forum has decided that I'm not allowed to speak badly of any Nintendo franchise since the Super Smash Bros. Brawl incident.

Fuck Other M, anyway. If you want a good next-gen Metroid experience, get Shadow Complex. The game feeds any Super Matroid fan's hunger for nostalgia, it's fun as hell, and there's a grand total of maybe twelve minutes worth of cutscenes in the entire game.

[???????]

Uh, I'm sorry dude, but, as good as Shadow Complex is, it is a little too identical to Super Metroid. It really doesn't offer much new in terms of gameplay. I'm not saying that it needed to do what the Castlevania games did by adding RPG elements, but it should've introduced some new upgrades rather than mimicking upgrades commonly found in the Metroid games.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that you're not allowed to say anything negative about Nintendo products. I mean, I think I'm the only one who's really defended a Nintendo franchise fiercely, said franchise is the Metroid franchise, and you know that I'm a major Metroid fanboy...

I have to say that I find it funny that you're claiming the game to suck before it even comes out. I can understand being pessimistic, but, damn dude, you've hated this game since the very first E3 trailer. I'll admit that I have some worries, but at least I'm giving it a chance and I'm not restating why because I've already stated why in this thread.

This post has been edited by ???????: 21 August 2010 - 05:35 AM

[Gold_TSG]

I'm buying it because I have money to piss away.

[Master of AFTER]

???????, on 20 August 2010 - 10:35 PM, said:

Uh, I'm sorry dude, but, as good as Shadow Complex is, it is a little too identical to Super Metroid. It really doesn't offer much new in terms of gameplay. I'm not saying that it needed to do what the Castlevania games did by adding RPG elements, but it should've introduced some new upgrades rather than mimicking upgrades commonly found in the Metroid games.

Different setting, different enemies and bosses, completely different map, different upgrades (the grappling hook works differently than in Metroid, and the foam gun and shield-generating helmet were 100% original), very different soundtrack and graphics... The basic structure of the gameplay copies Super Metroid because that was sort of the point of the game. The developers even admitted they were attempting to make a modern next-gen game that emulated the playstyle of the old Metroid titles.

Also, Shadow Complex does actually include a handful of RPG elements. The path you take is largely nonlinear, and you gain experience points and level-up a variety of statistics by killing enemies and exploring new areas.

???????, on 20 August 2010 - 10:35 PM, said:

I don't know where you're getting the idea that you're not allowed to say anything negative about Nintendo products. I mean, I think I'm the only one who's really defended a Nintendo franchise fiercely, said franchise is the Metroid franchise, and you know that I'm a major Metroid fanboy...

Hmm, maybe I'm safe here now that Shmeckie doesn't post on SOL anymore... I can't speak badly of anything related to the Wii without him jumping in a feverishly defending it. Also, as I mentioned before, I got crucified by half of the forums when I said that Brawl was a piece of crap.

By the way, how many of you guys still playing that game these day, hm?

???????, on 20 August 2010 - 10:35 PM, said:

I have to say that I find it funny that you're claiming the game to suck before it even comes out. I can understand being pessimistic, but, damn dude, you've hated this game since the very first E3 trailer. I'll admit that I have some worries, but at least I'm giving it a chance and I'm not restating why because I've already stated why in this thread.

Master of AFTER, on 20 August 2010 - 10:01 PM, said:

You've voiced my own opinions about this game and why it's likely going to suck down to the grittiest detail, [...]

I never said the game is going to blow for 100% certain, I merely said that I'm expecting it to be bad based on what I've seen and heard about it so far. I've already expressed why the E3 trailer worried me, and no new media released for the game since then has does anything to change my mind; each new piece of info has in fact succeeded in reinforcing my initial worries more than anything.

There's no need to me to repeat what Sway has already said, so go back and re-read his posts if you're wondering why my expectations for this game are nonexistent. Specifically, I agree with him that the people designing Other M just don't seem to GET what made the older Metroid games so enjoyable, and the heavy emphasis on the story is troubling since the storyline has NEVER been what the franchise is all about.

For the record, I personally liked Metroid Prime, by the way. Although I haven't played either of the sequels.

[Gold_TSG]

I still play Brawl...

[Muzzy Roberto]

Sway, on 02 August 2010 - 03:41 PM, said:

Metroid is about exploration, a silent protagonist, and some great boss battles....

That was back when Metroid was on a system where they didn't have the space/technology to cram 2 hours of story into an action game. As soon as FMV's became mainstay into video games, every designer looks at the 'product' and decides it's just not complete without an asinine storyline that will undoubtly go nowhere, FMVs they force you sit through (And, of course, pointless tutorials instructing you how to move, aim, shoot, turn the system off, etc.)

Oh, and I don't play Brawl. I tolerated Melee for a while, but Solid Snake? Blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggg....

[Sway]

Muzzy Roberto, on 21 August 2010 - 02:13 AM, said:

That was back when Metroid was on a system where they didn't have the space/technology to cram 2 hours of story into an action game. As soon as FMV's became mainstay into video games, every designer looks at the 'product' and decides it's just not complete without an asinine storyline that will undoubtly go nowhere, FMVs they force you sit through (And, of course, pointless tutorials instructing you how to move, aim, shoot, turn the system off, etc.)

Haha, well, they managed to cram a ton of shit into Fusion. And it was shit.

I realize you're on my side and exaggerated the other position to make a point, but to throw this out there, not just to you specifically: If it worked when there were limits, why change the successful formula? Even if Samus was originally intended to talk everyone's ear off and have MGS-style codec chats with Adam, if you have a good thing going, it's a bad idea to change it up on fans. Mega Man X was totally playable up through X4 (although only totally "good" up through X2 IMO), and surprise, MM9 and MM10 are alright. Because the formula worked and they stuck more or less to it. Maybe I'm some asshole fan who hates change and is holding franchises back because I'm too lame to "get it," but the reasons I liked a lot of classic games seem to disappear in the translation to modern systems when they don't have to. I'd be thrilled if they just made some new S3&K levels using that engine and called it Sonic 4.

I actually think Other M is looking pretty decent, but that's just based on a few trailers, and I get the feeling it will control like shit (seriously, no nunchuck?). I'm more worried that Nintendo is going down the wrong path, and losing sight of what Metroid is truly about.

(And for the record, Shadow Complex is pretty cool.)

[???????]

Master of AFTER, on 21 August 2010 - 01:19 AM, said:

Different setting, different enemies and bosses, completely different map, different upgrades (the grappling hook works differently than in Metroid, and the foam gun and shield-generating helmet were 100% original), very different soundtrack and graphics... The basic structure of the gameplay copies Super Metroid because that was sort of the point of the game. The developers even admitted they were attempting to make a modern next-gen game that emulated the playstyle of the old Metroid titles.

Also, Shadow Complex does actually include a handful of RPG elements. The path you take is largely nonlinear, and you gain experience points and level-up a variety of statistics by killing enemies and exploring new areas.

Haha, Shadow Complex doesn't have much of a soundtrack at all...

Anyway, my point was that, although it was a love letter to Super Metroid fans, I think the game should've offered more than that. I remember part of the reason this game being made was to bring back 2D Metroidvanias to the consoles. Surely the game could've still been a tribute to Super Metroid while offering more varied ways to traverse and interact with the world, more unique environments and hazards, and more varied enemies. I love exploration, yes, but I'd like some more variation in how I do it. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love Shadow Complex, but I'm still waiting for a game to do this. Hell, this may be why there hasn't been a pure 2D Metroid game in the longest; coming up with new ideas that don't seem rehashed or fuck with the gameplay in a negative manner must be hard.

I will admit that the whole level up thing was an awesome idea, although not totally original (Castlevania has the map clear percentage affect certain things in some of their games, but this may be a callout to Symphony of the Night, the other game Shadow Complex was was supposed to be a tribute to) and I'd love it if more Metroidvanias implemented something like it. Although there were problems with it, another thing I really liked that the game did was allow you to aim into the background since it was in 3D. Hell, come to think of it, if it were better done, I think they could've come up with some interesting ways to explore the world by interacting with certain things in the background.

Master of AFTER, on 21 August 2010 - 01:19 AM, said:

By the way, how many of you guys still playing that game these day, hm?

I like it, but haven't played it for months, last time being when Nick came over. I still like it, but I haven't played it nearly as much as I did Melee. Online is still occasionally laggy, lacking of features available when offline, and random matches were done horribly. Don't get me started on the single player gameplay.